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An
Interview with Sanford Drob on Kabbalah and Psychotherapy. An Interview with Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz.
Jewish Book News Interview with JBN: You have written,
in our estimation, two important new books on Kabbalah. Can you please
describe each of these books and what they offer the reader? The first of these books, Symbols of the Kabbalah: Philosophical and
Psychological Perspectives, provides an in-depth explanation of
kabbalistic ideas and symbols both from traditional sources and from the
point of view of contemporary philosophy and psychology. I try to make the
kabbalistic symbols accessible to the intelligent reader and show how the Kabbalah
provides a compelling account of God, humanity, and the universe, one that is
not only intellectually satisfying, but which also serves as a spiritual
guide for our personal and communal lives. The central focus of this work is
the Kabbalah of Rabbi Isaac Luria. Luria, who taught a small group of
disciples in 17th century Safed, left few writings, but his disciples, most
importantly, Chayyim Vital, provided a rich account of his symbolism.
However, for a number of reasons that I discuss in the book, the ideas behind
these symbols are very difficult to comprehend. My book
"translates" these symbols into philosophical and psychological
terms and serves both as a systematic overview of the Lurianic system and, as
a sort of encyclopedia of the Lurianic symbols. Amongst the many symbols it
discusses are Ein-sof (the
Infinite God) Tzimtzim
(divine contraction), the Sefirot
(the divine, creative archetypes), Adam
Kadmon (the Primordial Man) Shevirat
ha-Kelim (the Breaking of the Vessels), Sitra Achra (the counter-world of the
"Other Side") and Tikkun
ha-Olam, (the Restoration and Repair of the World). Those who
read my book will not only become conversant with these and other symbols,
but will also, by linking these symbols to their own lives and learning, be
able to provide their own interpretations of the them. The second book, Kabbalistic Metaphors: Jewish Mystical Themes In
Ancient and Modern Thought, puts the Kabbalah into a dialog with
the history of ideas. The Kabbalah has long been the province of a very few
who have guarded its esoteric teachings. Nonetheless, these teachings have
(in most cases silently) interacted with ideas and symbols of other
traditions in both the ancient and modern world. Further, even in cases where
the historical interaction has been limited, kabbalistic ideas can both
enrich and be enriched by disciplines outside of Judaism that share certain
features of its basic world-view. Amongst these traditions are Hinduism,
Buddhism, Gnosticism, Platonism, Neoplatonism, Idealist Philosophy, and the
psychologies of Freud and Jung. In Kabbalistic
Metaphors I place the symbols of the Kabbalah into a dialog with
each of these traditions and I seek to show how the Kabbalah articulates a
perennial philosophy, (features of which were already present in ancient
religious thought) that later became a guiding thread through much of modern
philosophy and psychology. I try to show not only how each of these
traditions are linked to the Kabbalah, but how they are linked to each other
through their sharing of ideas that are most fully developed in the
Kabbalistic sources. I believe that this book is for anyone who is interested
in creating a rapprochement between Jewish mysticism/philosophy and secular
learning. JBN: Why do you think
there is a revival of interest in Kabbalah these days in general, as well as
an interest in Kabbalah among some well-known The revival of interest in the Kabbalah
is, I believe, part of a general revival of interest in the mythical and
mystical basis of human spiritual and psychological experience that we see in
the world today, and particularly in the JBN: What is your own
personal interest in the subject based on? My grandfather, Rabbi Max Drob, who passed
away when I was a child, imparted to me the idea that I would someday make a
contribution to Jewish scholarship. However, I did not realize that my
interests would lead me into Jewish mysticism until I was first exposed to
Chabad Chassidus, particularly Schneur Zalman's Tanya, as a member of
Congregation B'nai Jacob in JBN: What do you make
of the commonly held notion that Kabbalah is only for married, learned,
Jewish men over 40? Is there any truth to this prohibition? There is a tradition that the Kabbalah
should not be taught to individuals under the age of 35 or 40. The Chasidim,
of course, have always elements of Chassidus, which is based on the Kabbalah,
even to their children, and have, in this way, circumvented this custom. I
think that the rabbis recognized the deep appeal of the Kabbalah, and were
concerned that younger individuals would become so wrapped up in Kabbalistic
symbolism that their talmudic studies would suffer, and as a result there
would be a threat to the fabric of the halakhic community. Further, as my
books show, many Kabbalistic ideas can be (mis)interpreted in a fashion that
could lead an individual astray. There are places in the Zohar, for example, that seem to imply
that humanity is not only a partner with God in creation, but that, under
circumstances, man can be credited with creating the One above Himself! These
are powerful and deep spiritual ideas, but in the minds of the young they
might readily lead one away from, rather than towards, Judaism. Finally, the
ban on Kabbalistic studies for the young actually creates an interest in
them; for a person always desires that which is forbidden. In our own century, a number of rabbis,
mindful of the fact that many Jews were completely alienated from their
Jewish roots and identity, relaxed the ban on Kabbalah studies amongst the young,
and have sought to inspire individuals back towards Judaism through the
Kabbalah's compelling spirituality. Today, Jew and non-Jew alike can find
rabbis and others who are willing to teach them "Kabbalah." I don't
know if this is such a good thing, because much of what is taught is, to my
mind, only remotely connected to the Kabbalah and even less so to Judaism.
However, I believe we are certainly past the point of enforcing an age ban,
and I believe that serious inquiry into and study of Jewish mysticism,
wherever and with whomever it occurs, is a very laudable thing. JBN: How do you feel
about issues such as the authorship of the Zohar?
Some say it is ancient in origin while others say it was written 500 or 600
years ago in The authorship of the Zohar is an interesting historical
question, but one that to my mind, is not of great philosophical or spiritual
significance. Even those who hold that Moses De Leon authored, rather than,
as he claimed, discovered the Zohar
in 1286 CE, recognize that the traditions embodied in that work were
centuries in the making. Many scholars now hold that Gnosticism, which dates
back to the second century, and which contains many themes that later seem to
reappear in Kabbalah, has its origins in early Jewish mysticism. But to my
mind the attraction of the Zohar
and other Kabbalistic texts lies not in their pedigree but in the power of
their symbols and the profundity of their ideas. That power and profundity
lies as much in the capacity to integrate varying sources as it does from its
originality. JBN: Why is the
typical rabbi, even among traditional rabbis, not only ignorant of Kabbalah
but often even hostile or antagonistic? Actually I think that many rabbis,
particularly non-traditional rabbis, are quite open to Jewish mystical
thought. Most of the more traditional rabbis, however, were simply not
exposed to it in depth, as Kabbalah is really not a part of the standard
yeshiva curriculum. Antagonism can, of course, grow out of ignorance, but I
believe that some rabbis are rightly concerned that the admixture of
Kabbalah, New Age thought, Buddhism, etc. that we find in some circles, and
the open teaching of the Kabbalah to non-Jews is an additional danger that
can threaten normative Judaism. My own view is that Judaism is easily strong
enough to absorb such threats and that if rabbis do not teach Kabbalah,
potential students will go elsewhere to learn it. Further, we are well past
the point of being able to control the market in ideas. There are, for
example, dozens if not hundreds of Internet cites that purport to and do
transmit Kabbalistic ideas. In the final analysis I firmly believe that
Kabbalah is actually a beautiful set of doctrines that can and should be part
of the market place of ideas. If they haven't done so already rabbis and
others should start investing now. JBN: Why should a
person in the year 2000 study Kabbalah? In the year 2000 people should study the
Kabbalah in order to gain access to a powerful doctrine that will facilitate
our mending ourselves and our world. We should study the Kabbalah to bring us
closer to, and to provide us with a deeper appreciation and understanding, of
God. We should study the Kabbalah to provide us with a philosophy of tolerance;
one which sees beauty and purpose in each of the worlds details, its manifold
species, cultures, traditions, and peoples, but which understands all things
as issuing out of and striving after a higher unity. We should study the
Kabbalah to allow a place for our atheism, doubt and even our evil, all as
part of our faith and the world's ultimate purpose and design. We should
study the Kabbalah to discover a model of inclusive and dialectical thinking
that we can apply to our personal lives, our professions, and all of our
relationships. We should study Kabbalah to provide us with a means of both
responding to and incorporating post-modern thought into a Jewish ethic and
philosophy. We should study Kabbalah for the sheer pleasure of learning and
for the rational/mystical experience that such study entails. We should study
the Kabbalah for the profound spiritual and personal change that it can
engender in our lives. JBN: Are there any
dangers to the study of Kabbalah? Yes, there are a number of dangers. On the
one hand, since kabbalistic texts are so difficult and obscure, one runs the
risk of obscurantism, and of claiming a sort of pseudo-insight in studying
them. On the other hand, the Kabbalah is so powerful, that one's life can
unexpectedly be transformed in the process of its study. I think that many people enjoy the cache
of an interest in the Kabbalah but are unwilling to engage in the difficult
spiritual, personal and intellectual work that is needed to approach this
work seriously. As a result, the Kabbalah is either trivialized or, as was
once the fashion, ridiculed. My own view is that the Kabbalah is a great
switching station, one in which the great currents of the Jewish tradition,
eastern mysticism, and western philosophy and psychology, as well as the
individual students' unconscious converge. This is why the study of the
Kabbalah requires a certain maturity, education, and wisdom. On the one hand
one needs to be familiar not only with Jewish biblical, talmudic and
philosophical tradition (which is difficult enough) but also with much of the
history of ideas, in order to fully appreciate the Kabbalah and its relevance
to contemporary life. On the other hand, one must also be open to the ways in
which Kabbalistic symbols and ideas apply to and work upon one's own psyche
and soul. In my own case, for example, a study of the kabbalistic symbol of
the "Breaking of the Vessels," which signifies that a
"perfect" universe must be broken and debased as a condition for
redemption, coincided with a major personal and spiritual crisis that
resulted in a "shattering" of many of my own values. The study of
the Kabbalah should spark interests and open up many doors, both intellectual
and personal. If it does not it becomes trivial. However, if it does, the results
can be very powerful and unexpected. JBN: Why is Kabbalah
considered a "secret?" The Kabbalah is considered
"secret" for a number of reasons. On the one hand, it is considered
by many to be part of a secret oral tradition that was given to Moses at
Sinai and which was passed down from masters to select pupils over thousands
of years. However, even with the advent of Jewish mystical texts, the
Kabbalah remained a secret because it was so difficult to comprehend. Even
the kabbalists themselves often felt that the material they studied was
resistant to their efforts to comprehend it. No less than the great Kabbalist
and rabbinic authority Jacob Emden (1697-1776) held that while Luria and some
others understood the meaning of the Kabbalah, once the Kabbalistic symbols
were written down they lost their significance and became opaque to later
generations. The founder of modern Kabbalah scholarship, Gershom Scholem,
held that the symbols of the Kabbalah were impenetrable to the rational mind
and that their significance lay beyond expression and communication. My own
view is that with the tools of contemporary Jewish, philosophical,
psychoanalytic, and comparative religious studies, the so-called
"secrets" of the Kabbalah can be deciphered, or at least provided
with meaningful interpretations, and I have attempted to do so in these two
books. To what extent I have succeeded will be open to others to judge. JBN:
Can you offer us an example of an idea that is considered a Kabbalistic idea? According to the Lurianic Kabbalah, the
infinite God (Ein-sof)
created the world through the emanation of ten value-archetypes, the Sefirot. These values, which included
Wisdom, Understanding, Kindness, Judgment, Beauty, etc. were to be the
elemental components of a perfect world. However, the cosmos was unable to
properly contain the emanation of divine energy, and the Sefirot/Values were shattered and
displaced, their broken shards tumbling into a dark realm, entrapping with
them "sparks" of divine light as they fell. Our world is comprised,
not of the values as they were originally conceived in the divine mind, but
of the broken shards resulting from the Shevirat ha-Kelim, the "Breaking
of the Vessels." It is humanity's divinely appointed task to
"complete creation" by extracting the light or "raising the
sparks" from these broken shards. This is done through the performance
of various ethical, spiritual, intellectual and aesthetic acts, which
highlight and reestablish values in our world. Each person, thing, or event
an individual encounters in life's way provides an opportunity to either
"raise a spark" and engage in Tikkun
ha-Olam, the Restoration of the World, or to throw the world
further into darkness. According to the Kabbalists, the world, restored through
the efforts of humankind will yield a greater perfection than if the Sefirot had never been shattered at
all. In the process humanity not only completes creation but becomes
mystically identified with the completion and perfection of God Himself! That
is just one example of a kabbalistic idea. The Lurianic Kabbalah is treated in detail
in Sanford Drob's Symbols of the Kabbalah and Kabbalistic
Metaphors .
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